- Pepe Julian Onzima, a human rights activist from Uganda, discusses the influence of the US in Uganda and the belief in recruitment of gays in the country.
- He explains that the idea of recruitment was planted by Scott Lively and the opposition to sexual minorities began in the early 2000s.
- Extremist religious groups in Uganda united against the LGBT community, leading to a backlash and people going underground.
- President Museveni of Uganda initially did not persecute homosexuals, but eventually joined the bandwagon due to the catchy persecution trend.
- Pepe Julian Onzima believes that sanctions imposed by the US are harmful, as they end up affecting the LGBT community directly.
- He also discusses the spread of anti-gay laws across Africa, attributing it to a combination of religious principles and domestic politics.
- Pepe Julian Onzima argues that homophobia is not indigenous to Africa and was introduced later through external influences like the Bible.
- He believes that blaming others for homophobia is a waste of time and that it is important to move on and focus on education and learning about history.
- The impact on Pepe Julian Onzima's family is not discussed in the summary.

- The person's family has been supportive of their activism
- The person has been researching a story about equality and has had a sad experience learning about their role in it
- They discuss the possibility of using a drone, but Pepe declines
- Pepe Julian Osuna is thanked for being with them

John Oliver talks in depth with Ugandan LGBTI rights activist Pepe Julian Onziema about the oppressive anti-gay legislation in Uganda as well as the western involvement in inspiring those laws.

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MUSIC We're back here with Pepe Julian Onzima, the human rights activist from Uganda.

Let's talk about some of the details of US influence.

We saw in the morning breeze clip that you were asked about recruitment, the recruitment that gays indulge in.

Is this a widely held belief in Uganda, this recruitment?

It is, and it's Court Lively that planted the whole idea of recruitment in my community, in my society.

The organization that I work for, Sexual Minorities Uganda, was formed in 2004.

And generally, the political, social, justice movement around sexual orientation and gender identity began like early 2000, maybe 2000, 2001.

And the opposition we were facing at that time did not mention recruitment.

It did not, it was not that of persecution.

It was just either people ignoring us or writing glamorous stories about us.

We saw a shift in 2007 when we had sort of a coming out campaign, we had a 45 days media campaign where we were going to TV stations, doing interviews with print media and radio.

And immediately after we launched that campaign, Semper formed...

Semper and other religious leaders, including Muslims, formed the coalition, the Rainbow Coalition against homosexuality.

There's nothing more dangerous than a really catchy tune.

Er, but, er, yes, that's the interesting thing.

In many ways, it kind of united extremist religious groups in Uganda, didn't it?

Extremist Muslims, extremist Christians, they were all united around the very convenient scapegoat of LGBT members.

And 2009, so from that time, we kept on seeing this resistance to us.

And people started leaving the country, people went underground.

There was no closure of offices or raiding of our meetings and so on.

After that seminar, the seminar was supposed to last for a week.

It lasted, I think, for officially for 2 weeks.

And officially Scott Lively was in the country for more than 2 weeks a month.

It was supposed to last 1 week, lasted for 2.

And during this time, he came with a doctrine that if you continue allowing activism, advocacy around sexual orientation and gender identity, you will have no generation because homosexuals are here to recruit your children.

This is also coming from the top down in Uganda, because President Museveni has argued that the West has cultivated homosexuality.

Do people in Uganda genuinely believe that we in the West invented homosexuality and franchised it like a Happy Meal?

President Museveni, I think, for some time, before he actually signed the law, what we're seeing was a change in his attitude towards homosexuality.

He very many different times said that homosexuals exist, but they've never been persecuted.

He didn't understand where that was coming from until, I guess, when it became very catchy to continue persecuting homosexuals in Uganda.

So I guess he jumped on the bandwagon as well.

Because in the West, we like to think that we have the solution for anyone's problems overseas.

Is there anything sanction or drone-based that we could do?

Because we love those, because we can do those from here.

We can stay, and then we can help you from Utah.

Look, do you think the sanctions are helpful or harmful?

I know we issued guidelines on what people could do.

There are people who believe that sanctions will work.

I'm 1 of those people who believes that It doesn't work.

Because however targeted it is, we are the ones who end up suffering.

In the recent sanctions, there's aid cut from community policing.

And we were trying, you know, we had laid grounds to engage the police, because we know the police is the immediate violator of LGBT people, arresting when the community call on them, and taking that money away from them, taking away that funding from them to continue community policing

Why I say that is because in instances where the community is attempting mob justice, there's like police everywhere, so they come and intervene.

Of course they will take you in custody and treat you as a homosexual.

Now, let's just talk a little bit more about LGBT issues across Africa, because the anti-gay laws are not just in Uganda, they've spread across Africa.

37 African countries now have anti-homosexuality laws.

Is this a question of religious principle or is there a lot of domestic politics going on with this?

Actually, when you look at it, politics and religion are like so in bed together.

our communities hold very, very, very close.

When it comes to other issues, from history, religion came from outside Africa.

But why our African leaders and African, mainly leaders, hold so tightly onto it.

And then they say homosexuality that has existed in Africa for long, they say that it's from West, it becomes very.

But that is the most demonstrably false thing they could possibly say.

You can't say, there are anthropologists who pointed out that in pre-colonial times, homosexual marriages were treated as equal to heterosexual marriages among the Azandi people in the Central African Republic.

But in Uganda, there were pre-colonial words in Uganda for homosexual that were not derogatory.

The crazy thing in researching this was realising that homophobia is not indigenous to Africa.

Homosexuality has been there for, let's say...

But homophobia has been introduced later.

I believe that homophobia is the very thing that is actually from outside Africa.

The Bible came, and different things happened.

Whatever kept us together, something had to be used to divide us, so that there's this whole mess within the Ugandan or African settings, so that there's this submission that is enforcing people, right?

However much homophobia came from the West or came from Britain, I think we have to move beyond blaming people.

We are learning more about our history, and we know the truth, yeah?

But we are wasting our potential, we are wasting our intelligence, our human resource, our humanity, blaming people who have moved on.

I think that's a waste of time, and we have to move

I've been researching this story this week, because there are really happy things happening here regarding equality, and there has been a sad experience learning about our role in this.

We'll just try it for the sake of it, Pepe.

Pepe, Julian, Osuna, ladies and gentlemen.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Thank you so much, Pepe.


Speaker 0: MUSIC We're back here with Pepe Julian Onzima, the human rights activist from Uganda. Let's talk about some of the details of US influence. We saw in the morning breeze clip that you were asked about recruitment, the recruitment that gays indulge in. Is this a widely held belief in Uganda, this recruitment?

Speaker 1: It is, and it's Court Lively that planted the whole idea of recruitment in my community, in my society. The organization that I work for, Sexual Minorities Uganda, was formed in 2004. And generally, the political, social, justice movement around sexual orientation and gender identity began like early 2000, maybe 2000, 2001. And the opposition we were facing at that time did not mention recruitment. It did not mention pedophilia.

It did not, it was not that of persecution. It was just either people ignoring us or writing glamorous stories about us. We saw a shift in 2007 when we had sort of a coming out campaign, we had a 45 days media campaign where we were going to TV stations, doing interviews with print media and radio. And immediately after we launched that campaign, Semper formed... Semper and other religious leaders, including Muslims, formed the coalition, the Rainbow Coalition against homosexuality.

Speaker 0: The rainbow belongs to God. LAUGHTER See? It's a catchy song. Hateful message, catchy song. Undeniably catchy tune.

True. There's nothing more dangerous than a really catchy tune. Er, but, er, yes, that's the interesting thing. It wasn't just... In many ways, it kind of united extremist religious groups in Uganda, didn't it?

Extremist Muslims, extremist Christians, they were all united around the very convenient scapegoat of LGBT members.

Speaker 1: Yes, they did. And 2009, so from that time, we kept on seeing this resistance to us. And there was this huge backlash. And people started leaving the country, people went underground. But we kept on working.

There was no closure of offices or raiding of our meetings and so on. And we saw that shift in 2009, March. After that seminar, the seminar was supposed to last for a week. It lasted, I think, for officially for 2 weeks. And officially Scott Lively was in the country for more than 2 weeks a month.

Speaker 0: It was like a hateful Hanukkah. It was supposed to last 1 week, lasted for 2. Yes.

Speaker 1: And during this time, he came with a doctrine that if you continue allowing activism, advocacy around sexual orientation and gender identity, you will have no generation because homosexuals are here to recruit your children.

Speaker 0: Right. This is also coming from the top down in Uganda, because President Museveni has argued that the West has cultivated homosexuality. He called it social imperialism. Do people in Uganda genuinely believe that we in the West invented homosexuality and franchised it like a Happy Meal?

Speaker 1: LAUGHTER Yes.

Speaker 0: They really do?

Speaker 1: They really do. President Museveni, I think, for some time, before he actually signed the law, what we're seeing was a change in his attitude towards homosexuality. He very many different times said that homosexuals exist, but they've never been persecuted. And the persecution was disturbing him. He didn't understand where that was coming from until, I guess, when it became very catchy to continue persecuting homosexuals in Uganda.

So I guess he jumped on the bandwagon as well.

Speaker 0: What can we do? Because in the West, we like to think that we have the solution for anyone's problems overseas. So is there... I mean, we're trying sanctions now. Is there anything sanction or drone-based that we could do?

Because we love those, because we can do those from here. We can stay, and then we can help you from Utah.

Speaker 1: The US. Let me tell you something.

Speaker 0: That was such a long pause. That was such a... He said, the US... Look, do you think the sanctions are helpful or harmful?

Speaker 1: In my opinion, very harmful. Not just harmful, but very harmful.

Speaker 0: Why so?

Speaker 1: Because... ..I live on the ground.

Speaker 0: Right.

Speaker 1: Right? I know we issued guidelines on what people could do. And We are divided on this issue. There are people who believe that sanctions will work. Some believe it won't work.

I'm 1 of those people who believes that It doesn't work. Because however targeted it is, we are the ones who end up suffering. I'll give you an example. In the recent sanctions, there's aid cut from community policing. And we were trying, you know, we had laid grounds to engage the police, because we know the police is the immediate violator of LGBT people, arresting when the community call on them, and taking that money away from them, taking away that funding from them to continue community policing

Speaker 0: endangers

Speaker 1: us. Why I say that is because in instances where the community is attempting mob justice, there's like police everywhere, so they come and intervene. When they intervene, the mob is away. They save you for that moment. Of course they will take you in custody and treat you as a homosexual.

But that initial... Reaction is very important. It's very important.

Speaker 0: Now, let's just talk a little bit more about LGBT issues across Africa, because the anti-gay laws are not just in Uganda, they've spread across Africa. 37 African countries now have anti-homosexuality laws. How does this happen? Is this a question of religious principle or is there a lot of domestic politics going on with this?

Speaker 1: It's both. Actually, when you look at it, politics and religion are like so in bed together. There's religion that

Speaker 0: our communities hold very, very, very close. When it comes to other issues, from history, religion came from outside Africa. But why our African leaders and African, mainly leaders, hold so tightly onto it. And then they say homosexuality that has existed in Africa for long, they say that it's from West, it becomes very. But that is the most demonstrably false thing they could possibly say.

You can't say, there are anthropologists who pointed out that in pre-colonial times, homosexual marriages were treated as equal to heterosexual marriages among the Azandi people in the Central African Republic.

Speaker 1: Politicians don't want to hear that.

Speaker 0: But in Uganda, there were pre-colonial words in Uganda for homosexual that were not derogatory. What's clear is that homosexual... Are you aware

Speaker 1: that my president actually agrees?

Speaker 0: Ah. The crazy thing in researching this was realising that homophobia is not indigenous to Africa. Homosexuality has been there for, let's say... Forever. I was going to say 200 years.

But sure, let's... You're right, forever. Forever. But homophobia has been introduced later.

Speaker 1: Yes. I believe that homophobia is the very thing that is actually from outside Africa. The Bible came, and different things happened. Whatever kept us together, something had to be used to divide us, so that there's this whole mess within the Ugandan or African settings, so that there's this submission that is enforcing people, right? However much homophobia came from the West or came from Britain, I think we have to move beyond blaming people.

Speaker 0: Right.

Speaker 1: Yeah? We've been educated over the years. We are learning more about our history, and we know the truth, yeah? But we are wasting our potential, we are wasting our intelligence, our human resource, our humanity, blaming people who have moved on. I think that's a waste of time, and we have to move

Speaker 0: on. How have your family been through this? Have they been... Are they frightened of your activism? Have they been supportive of you?

Speaker 1: My family is great.

Speaker 0: Oh, God, that's great. Really? That's good. That's awesome. I can't thank you enough, Pepe.

I've been researching this story this week, because there are really happy things happening here regarding equality, and there has been a sad experience learning about our role in this. Are you sure there's nothing we can do? Are you sure just 1 drone? No drone. Just 1 drone.

1 drone, Pepe. No, thank you. Well, you've not tried it. You can't say that. You've not tried it yet.

It might help. You don't know. We'll get 1 drone. We're agreed. 1 drone, we'll try it.

We'll just try it for the sake of it, Pepe. Thank you so much for being with us. Pepe, Julian, Osuna, ladies and gentlemen. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Thank you so much, Pepe. I can't thank you enough.

That was awesome. Was that OK? Was that anything you wanted to say?

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Pepe Julian Onziema Interview Pt. II (Web Exclusive): Last Week Tonight with John Oliver (HBO)