Taken from JRE #1885 w/Andy Stump & Mike Sarraile:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5TZaO4N1t37pjwj1L7UcWx?si=0360743f2cbc4c29

The thing about things like, whether it's SEALs or any high level military operation group, whenever you're dealing with people that have done something that's extraordinarily difficult, There's like a rite of passage that you guys have gone through that a lot of people think is missing from particularly young men in our society and culture.

There's no real moment where you recognize that you've done something incredibly difficult and you've actually become a man.

It almost seems like society is pushing it the other direction where that shouldn't exist or it should be avoided.

1 of the things I hear is this narrative that it's too difficult.

I think you gotta consider the source on that 1.

Like the most recent thing that came out, I'm sure you saw this, Mike, was the, there was a video of training that occurred, I'm pretty sure it was on San Clemente Island, because that's where they CS gassed us.

And there's guys who are outside and they're getting exposure to CS gas.

Which I remember before I joined the military, if you look at any movie, probably up to and including like Full Metal Jacket, or if you even went into a recruiting office, exposure to CS Gas is something that you do in basic training.

Except, I don't know if the Air Force does it.

Probably they don't, but let's assume that they do.

It was completely standard and normal to see.

You go into a room, you have a gas mask on, and they make you take it off and they make you either do something or say something or talk so you can't hold your breath.

So this video comes out of students that are outside which 1 is it actually a huge advantage because it dissipates quickly especially if there's any kind of wind and they're getting gassed And there's already issues with the story that I'm telling, because 1, who the fuck is filming this?

Like, just the fact that there was somebody there who was filming this thing and it made it onto the internet in any way, shape, and form is a mistake in and of itself.

So it couldn't have been someone who's in the program.

So the students, the last 4 weeks of training, you go out to San Clemente Island.

And you get a very basic indoctrination into small unit tactics, rifle, weaponry, explosives.

But you're out there for the last tight 4 weeks of training.

The students, I mean, I don't even remember having a cell phone when I went through actually in 97.

I'd be shocked if they're allowed to have cell phones on there, so it had to have been an instructor.

But they're getting gassed, they're being made to sing Happy Birthday again so you can't hold your breath, and it looks horrible.

And the point of that training is, is it's supposed to suck.

You're supposed to be exposed to that in a controlled training environment.

People are like, well, this 1 person looked like they were passing out and there's mucus coming out of their face.

But the first time you experience that shouldn't be in a combat zone.

You can leave this particular training block if you want to at any given time.

And oh, by the way, every branch of military exposes their people to this.

So although there are people who are saying, yeah, it's too difficult, you have to, I think you have to consider the source.

I don't think they know what they're talking about.

And if they didn't want to, I bet you they can be like, you know what, Mr.

So what happened with that particular video?

And because of what it looks like, it looks like exactly what it is, a really shitty evolution where you can't breathe, your sinuses are running more than you ever have had them run in your life.

You can't see, you can barely talk, you're choking, you're gagging.

Some people throw up, so it made it onto the internet.

And people started saying, how could you do that?

That's weird that people on the internet had opinions.

Did you just say it was weird the people on the internet have opinions?

But the fact that anybody paid attention to those opinions.

It actually, not only did they have opinions, it started getting shared.

And then it started, the next thing you know, it's on major news outlets.

And then I actually think I saw an article saying that the Navy opened an investigation into it.

They have to, at that point, you have to.

Here it is, Navy launches investigation to SEAL tear gas video.

Newly surfaced video showing Navy SEAL recruits being tear gassed is adding to scrutiny, adding to scrutiny over elite military units training practices.

But you, I mean, you could speak to this, please, because you have to have brutal training.

I remember going through this in the Marine Corps.

I cannot recall that evolution on San Comandio.

And I asked somebody, they're like, oh yeah, it happened.

We went out into a demo range and they had sprinkled in CS powder into the dirt So we didn't actually realize we were having an exposure to it and people were just covered in I remember I'm sitting there We were trying to do demo calculations or like cut debt cord and You're like dry heaving the reason I would say the reason that this is probably the bigger issue is that there was a high-profile death in SEAL training not too long ago With a student who had just completed hell week and died in the hospital shortly thereafter The young man's mother is a nurse and she's very vocal about what has happened and there was an investigation involving that.

So it seems like not to, I mean, horrendous to lose your son in any way, shape or form.

I don't want to take anything away from that.

But from that incident, you know, this is like another layer on top of the onion on something that people were already talking about Which in you combine the 2 and people it just seems like for 1 I wish seals could get the fuck out of the news in general But since it starts, you know, they're layering on top of each other, it can seem to be a bigger deal than it is.

So, during help week, you've got open sores, you're in the water, which isn't far from the Tijuana where it drains off.

And first off, my condolences to the mother, because this kid was a stud.

He was the captain of the Yale football team.

You look at the source, this is all New York Times.

It's a string of reporters from New York Times that have just been, they've had a hard on for the SEAL teams.

They have been going out, in fact, they wrote a book and you have the author Matt Cole, Code Over Country.

And they have just for the last half decade if not more have made it their personal crusade to bring down the SEAL teams.

And the Eddie Gallagher incident did not help.

But it's amazing how Eddie can have and I think Eddie had like, 8 combat deployments, how he can serve honorably and he was number 1 at the SEAL team, his SEAL team, I think, for E6, I believe.

He served honorably for 19 years in the last incident he's involved in, which he was acquitted for.

The last sentence of his chapter as a SEAL defines all the 19 years and all the good work that he did in defense of our nation For those who would never even think of serving

and he was acquitted What was the charge again?

It was there was it was something about a detainee.

It was a ISIS prisoner that had been wounded in a strike, and while rendering medical aid, they accused Eddie of murder.

But they still don't appreciate that he was acquitted.

Like, they still treat him like he's guilty.

Some of the things I've seen in the press, and I'll keep reporters out of it, 1, I can't remember their names, but a lot of the liberal news media just have painted him as a war criminal.

The branch in San Diego was never held accountable for, let's just say, bad practices that they implemented while trying to bring Eddie down.

NCIS is not always your friend and they're looking to make a name for themselves as well and in fact I was I was investigated the day I retired by the same crew of people from NCIS San Diego, only 6 months previous to when the whole Eddie Gallagher thing sort of came on.

But I mean, they tapped or they put a bug into Eddie's lawyers emails so that they could read all the documents coming into that lawyer they did some pretty pretty lame tactics and they were never held accountable.

The initial lawyer was fired, relieved, and they replaced him rapidly, but.

Laterally transferred, and that's how they dealt with it.

I want to see something when you first pulled up the first initial complaints, because I want to scroll.

So they were talking about the protocols.

We have absolutely 0 tolerance for hazing, abuse, or deviations from safety protocols.

As Navy SEALs, we serve our fellow Americans uncompromising integrity as our standard, our character and honor are steadfast.

Most of all, we were expected to lead by example in all situations.

So if that is like standard operational procedure for those kind of training programs, why does he have to say that?

It's not, I mean, you could, could you haze somebody with tear gas?

What I'll say is this, as somebody who was a BUDS instructor, there is an evolution sheet and matrix for every single thing that happens in training, to include remediating the students.

When they fall short of a standard, there are limits to how long you can remediate them for.

There's limits to the exercises that you can use.

There is an oversight matrix of who's in charge of the evolution.

What's the ratio going to be student to instructor?

There is somewhere a matrix and evolution sheet for exposure to CS gas in BUDS.

There is absolutely no way that those instructors are like, Hey, Mike, you do anything tomorrow too?

But as somebody who worked in that pipeline with that curriculum, it exists.

And what they need to say is, yeah, there's a reason that we do this.

And the reason that we do this is so that their first exposure isn't in an environment where their life might be on the line.

That would actually shut it down, because what that does is it leaves the door and it leaves question in people's minds.

And also I'll add to that, My answer when people ask me about students who have died in BUDs, and I think there have been 10 in the history of BUDs since the 50s, is that it needs to continue to happen.

But if the training becomes so exceedingly safe that that's not a potential, then we're not serving people in that training and we're not preparing them for what the battlefield's gonna expect

If you explain it to the American public, more than half still won't understand.

They will still view it as brutal, as unnecessary, but there's been a push to make the military a playground for progressive policies.

And it is the last place politically that we want people playing.

And I mean, you even see China has a has an initiative to actually make their men more masculine.

Yeah, so we're going the opposite opposite direction.

You know, there is a diversity, equity, equity and inclusion chief at the Pentagon now, who wrote a book that basically called the first responders menaces.

And basically painted them as white supremacists.

What people don't understand is it is highly professional.

There are standards, there's doctrine, and instructors know that they follow that playbook.

They mitigate risk to the lowest level because you always have the risk of getting investigated for something like this.

So who's letting these progressive policies infect the military?

Is that just people who are blissfully unaware because they're on the outside.

Like, how does that ever get in to the point where you're considering things like elite groups like the SEALs having to deal with this sort of politically correct nonsense?

Personally, I think the policy of transparency that was made or popularized by President Obama, and this is, I'm not attacking President Obama, he was aggressive on the war on terror.

He made a lot of aggressive decisions, but There are certain communities where transparency like the CIA special operations is not the best policy, is they should remain in the shadows.

And there should be just public trust that we are doing the right things.

We don't want anyone to pass away in training.

But we also don't want to advertise our capabilities or our training or our capacities to potential military peers like China or Russia.

So the transparency for me, propaganda, do it with the regular military, keep special operations out of the public.

I don't have an answer for how it started infiltrating other than it seems to be the groundswell.

I mean, the military is just a group of people from normal society, so I don't think it's uncommon to see things that our society is dealing with working their way into the military, but I do hope that there is a backstop against it.

And in my mind, everything needs to be worked in a reverse direction.

What is it we're asking these people to do in the real world execution of their job?

Now let's work our training pipeline to prepare those people for that.


Speaker 0: The Joe Rogan Experience.

Speaker 1: The thing about things like, whether it's SEALs or any high level military operation group, whenever you're dealing with people that have done something that's extraordinarily difficult, There's like a rite of passage that you guys have gone through that a lot of people think is missing from particularly young men in our society and culture. There's no real moment where you recognize that you've done something incredibly difficult and you've actually become a man.

Speaker 0: It almost seems like society is pushing it the other direction where that shouldn't exist or it should be avoided.

Speaker 1: Even with the teams. 1 of the things I hear is this narrative that it's too difficult.

Speaker 0: I think you gotta consider the source on that 1. Like the most recent thing that came out, I'm sure you saw this, Mike, was the, there was a video of training that occurred, I'm pretty sure it was on San Clemente Island, because that's where they CS gassed us. And there's guys who are outside and they're getting exposure to CS gas. Which I remember before I joined the military, if you look at any movie, probably up to and including like Full Metal Jacket, or if you even went into a recruiting office, exposure to CS Gas is something that you do in basic training. Except, I don't know if the Air Force does it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 0: Let's assume that they do. Probably they don't, but let's assume that they do. It was completely standard and normal to see. And that room sucks. You go into a room, you have a gas mask on, and they make you take it off and they make you either do something or say something or talk so you can't hold your breath.

That's the point of all that. So this video comes out of students that are outside which 1 is it actually a huge advantage because it dissipates quickly especially if there's any kind of wind and they're getting gassed And there's already issues with the story that I'm telling, because 1, who the fuck is filming this? Like, just the fact that there was somebody there who was filming this thing and it made it onto the internet in any way, shape, and form is a mistake in and of itself.

Speaker 1: So it couldn't have been someone who's in the program.

Speaker 2: It was the instructor.

Speaker 0: It had to have been an instructor. So the students, the last 4 weeks of training, you go out to San Clemente Island. It's called third phase. And you get a very basic indoctrination into small unit tactics, rifle, weaponry, explosives. You throw some grenades.

You do some underwater demo. But you're out there for the last tight 4 weeks of training. The students, I mean, I don't even remember having a cell phone when I went through actually in 97. I'd be shocked if they're allowed to have cell phones on there, so it had to have been an instructor. But they're getting gassed, they're being made to sing Happy Birthday again so you can't hold your breath, and it looks horrible.

Because it is horrible. And the point of that training is, is it's supposed to suck. It's supposed to be difficult. You're supposed to be exposed to that in a controlled training environment. People are like, well, this 1 person looked like they were passing out and there's mucus coming out of their face.

Like, yeah, it's CS gas. It sucks. But the first time you experience that shouldn't be in a combat zone. So it's a volunteer only program. You can leave this particular training block if you want to at any given time.

And oh, by the way, every branch of military exposes their people to this. So although there are people who are saying, yeah, it's too difficult, you have to, I think you have to consider the source. I don't think they know what they're talking about.

Speaker 1: We expose people to it on Fear Factor.

Speaker 0: Yeah, again, voluntary. And if they didn't want to, I bet you they can be like, you know what, Mr. Rogan, I'm done with this episode. Like, I'm out

Speaker 1: of here. So what happened with that particular video?

Speaker 0: It made its way onto the internet. And because of what it looks like, it looks like exactly what it is, a really shitty evolution where you can't breathe, your sinuses are running more than you ever have had them run in your life. You can't see, you can barely talk, you're choking, you're gagging. Some people throw up, so it made it onto the internet. And people started saying, how could you do that?

Like, this is too brutal of training. How could you possibly do this?

Speaker 1: That's weird that people on the internet had opinions. So they just had opinions?

Speaker 0: Did you just say it was weird the people on the internet have opinions? I'm joking.

Speaker 1: Clearly being sarcastic. Okay. But the fact that anybody paid attention to those opinions.

Speaker 0: It trended for a while. It actually, not only did they have opinions, it started getting shared. And then it started, the next thing you know, it's on major news outlets. And then I actually think I saw an article saying that the Navy opened an investigation into it.

Speaker 2: They have to, at that point, you have to.

Speaker 0: They should open an investigation. Their hands are tied.

Speaker 1: Here it is, Navy launches investigation to SEAL tear gas video. Newly surfaced video showing Navy SEAL recruits being tear gassed is adding to scrutiny, adding to scrutiny over elite military units training practices. But you, I mean, you could speak to this, please, because you have to have brutal training.

Speaker 0: So you have to layer onto this.

Speaker 2: I was gonna say this.

Speaker 0: Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 2: I remember going through this in the Marine Corps. I cannot recall that evolution on San Comandio. And I asked somebody, they're like, oh yeah, it happened. I can't remember it.

Speaker 0: We went out into a demo range and they had sprinkled in CS powder into the dirt So we didn't actually realize we were having an exposure to it and people were just covered in I remember I'm sitting there We were trying to do demo calculations or like cut debt cord and You're like dry heaving the reason I would say the reason that this is probably the bigger issue is that there was a high-profile death in SEAL training not too long ago With a student who had just completed hell week and died in the hospital shortly thereafter The young man's mother is a nurse and she's very vocal about what has happened and there was an investigation involving that. So it seems like not to, I mean, horrendous to lose your son in any way, shape or form. I don't want to take anything away from that. But from that incident, you know, this is like another layer on top of the onion on something that people were already talking about Which in you combine the 2 and people it just seems like for 1 I wish seals could get the fuck out of the news in general But since it starts, you know, they're layering on top of each other, it can seem to be a bigger deal than it is.

Speaker 1: What did he die from?

Speaker 2: Infection. Yes. So, during help week, you've got open sores, you're in the water, which isn't far from the Tijuana where it drains off. So, that's always been a concern. We mitigate it extremely well.

And first off, my condolences to the mother, because this kid was a stud. He was the captain of the Yale football team. He was going to become a SEAL. He passed the hardest. So it

Speaker 1: was like a staph infection.

Speaker 2: It was a staph infection. And you look at the source.

Speaker 1: Bacterial pneumonia.

Speaker 2: You look at the source, this is all New York Times. It's a string of reporters from New York Times that have just been, they've had a hard on for the SEAL teams. They have been going out, in fact, they wrote a book and you have the author Matt Cole, Code Over Country. Yeah. And they have just for the last half decade if not more have made it their personal crusade to bring down the SEAL teams.

And the Eddie Gallagher incident did not help. But here's what I'll say. 1, Eddie is a friend. Eddie didn't handle all situations well. But it's amazing how Eddie can have and I think Eddie had like, 8 combat deployments, how he can serve honorably and he was number 1 at the SEAL team, his SEAL team, I think, for E6, I believe.

He served honorably for 19 years in the last incident he's involved in, which he was acquitted for. That defines his entire career. The last sentence of his chapter as a SEAL defines all the 19 years and all the good work that he did in defense of our nation For those who would never even think of serving

Speaker 1: and he was acquitted What was the charge again? It was there was it was something about a detainee.

Speaker 0: I think the charge was murder. Yes.

Speaker 2: It was a ISIS prisoner that had been wounded in a strike, and while rendering medical aid, they accused Eddie of murder. But He was acquitted.

Speaker 1: Yes. But they still don't appreciate that he was acquitted. Like, they still treat him like he's guilty.

Speaker 2: Some of the things I've seen in the press, and I'll keep reporters out of it, 1, I can't remember their names, but a lot of the liberal news media just have painted him as a war criminal. Bottom line. And his life has been impacted. If you look even at, so

Speaker 0: first off, NCIS. Naval Criminal Investigation Service.

Speaker 2: The branch in San Diego was never held accountable for, let's just say, bad practices that they implemented while trying to bring Eddie down. They also had a hard-on. NCIS is not always your friend and they're looking to make a name for themselves as well and in fact I was I was investigated the day I retired by the same crew of people from NCIS San Diego, only 6 months previous to when the whole Eddie Gallagher thing sort of came on. But I mean, they tapped or they put a bug into Eddie's lawyers emails so that they could read all the documents coming into that lawyer they did some pretty pretty lame tactics and they were never held accountable.

Speaker 1: Is that, is it legal to do that?

Speaker 2: No. The initial lawyer was fired, relieved, and they replaced him rapidly, but.

Speaker 0: Was he relieved from military service? No, he was not. Or was he

Speaker 2: laterally transferred? Laterally transferred, and that's how they dealt with it.

Speaker 1: Jamie, go back to that article again. I want to see something when you first pulled up the first initial complaints, because I want to scroll. Yeah, right there. So they were talking about the protocols. Here, let me be clear.

We have absolutely 0 tolerance for hazing, abuse, or deviations from safety protocols. As Navy SEALs, we serve our fellow Americans uncompromising integrity as our standard, our character and honor are steadfast. Most of all, we were expected to lead by example in all situations. So if that is like standard operational procedure for those kind of training programs, why does he have to say that? It's not hazing, right?

Speaker 0: It's not, I mean, you could, could you haze somebody with tear gas? Yes. What I'll say is this, as somebody who was a BUDS instructor, there is an evolution sheet and matrix for every single thing that happens in training, to include remediating the students. When they fall short of a standard, there are limits to how long you can remediate them for. There's limits to the exercises that you can use.

There is an oversight matrix of who's in charge of the evolution. What's the ratio going to be student to instructor? There is somewhere a matrix and evolution sheet for exposure to CS gas in BUDS. There is absolutely no way that those instructors are like, Hey, Mike, you do anything tomorrow too? Let's go gas these fuckers.

Like That doesn't happen. Every single day in BUDS is templated. Why that person said that, I'm not sure. But as somebody who worked in that pipeline with that curriculum, it exists. And what they need to say is, yeah, there's a reason that we do this.

And the reason that we do this is so that their first exposure isn't in an environment where their life might be on the line. That would actually shut it down, because what that does is it leaves the door and it leaves question in people's minds. Did they did they make a mistake? Were they hazing people? Do we need to do this?

My resounding answer is yes. And also I'll add to that, My answer when people ask me about students who have died in BUDs, and I think there have been 10 in the history of BUDs since the 50s, is that it needs to continue to happen. I don't want it to happen. I don't want anybody to lose their life. But if the training becomes so exceedingly safe that that's not a potential, then we're not serving people in that training and we're not preparing them for what the battlefield's gonna expect

Speaker 2: of them. I'll push against you on that 1. If you explain it to the American public, more than half still won't understand. They will still view it as brutal, as unnecessary, but there's been a push to make the military a playground for progressive policies. And it is the last place politically that we want people playing.

And I mean, you even see China has a has an initiative to actually make their men more masculine. Yeah, so we're going the opposite opposite direction. You know, there is a diversity, equity, equity and inclusion chief at the Pentagon now, who wrote a book that basically called the first responders menaces. And basically painted them as white supremacists. And It's going a very bad direction.

I will say this about the military. What people don't understand is it is highly professional. I've always been impressed. There are standards, there's doctrine, and instructors know that they follow that playbook. They mitigate risk to the lowest level because you always have the risk of getting investigated for something like this.

Speaker 1: So who's letting these progressive policies infect the military? How is that ever an option? Is that just people who are blissfully unaware because they're on the outside. Like, how does that ever get in to the point where you're considering things like elite groups like the SEALs having to deal with this sort of politically correct nonsense?

Speaker 2: Personally, I think the policy of transparency that was made or popularized by President Obama, and this is, I'm not attacking President Obama, he was aggressive on the war on terror. He made a lot of aggressive decisions, but There are certain communities where transparency like the CIA special operations is not the best policy, is they should remain in the shadows. And there should be just public trust that we are doing the right things. We don't want anyone to pass away in training. We don't want to get anyone hurt.

But we also don't want to advertise our capabilities or our training or our capacities to potential military peers like China or Russia. So the transparency for me, propaganda, do it with the regular military, keep special operations out of the public. But even doing

Speaker 1: it with the regular military, like why? I don't know, what

Speaker 2: is that?

Speaker 0: I don't have an answer for how it started infiltrating other than it seems to be the groundswell. I mean, the military is just a group of people from normal society, so I don't think it's uncommon to see things that our society is dealing with working their way into the military, but I do hope that there is a backstop against it. And in my mind, everything needs to be worked in a reverse direction. What is it we're asking these people to do in the real world execution of their job? Now let's work our training pipeline to prepare those people for that.

See all PowerfulJRE transcripts on Youtube

Former SEAL's on the Criticism of Navy SEAL Training