Taken from JRE #1955 w/Cliff Gray:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/18YM5V5n5C2YnabRjriWz9?si=932a2345689f4d01

Wolves are dominant, intelligent, calculating predators.

That they eradicated from the West for a reason.

So, I think you hit on a bunch of things that would like bring me back to my opinion on it.

And that's that a lot of this stuff when you wouldn't.

So I know they've basically described 2 different areas in Colorado where they're going to put the 2 or the 2 first sets of transplants.

And 1 of them is like right in where, you're not, I mean, I rode that country with a horse like all over the place, in the circle of where they're gonna put those wolves is right there.

So I know where they're gonna put those, you know, 1 of the spots.

How many wolves are they going to put in?

So, my understanding is off the bat, the first year, and I believe their goal is by December of this year, it's going to be like between 15 and 30, I believe is the first bunch.

And they're going to have them in 2 different spots.

But in that, you know, in that Vale corridor, you know, up to the flat tops in there, you know, so they're probably gonna put 15 to 20 wolves in there.

The thing that you hit on, Joe, that I think kind of forms my opinion is, I mean, these areas, when you go in them, man, they seem so wild, Right?

Like, you know, I could, the flat tops, I could get on a horse and I could ride for 15, 15 hours and not see a road, you know, 10 hours and not see a road.

And they seem so wild, even to me being there.

But I don't think that people realize how much, how much humans have already affected that landscape and how it doesn't matter like the this myth that putting wolves back in the land that landscape is going to turn it back to some ecosystem that was here, you know, 300 years ago, I think it's a figment of their imagination, man.

And the reason I say that is because I've also spent a fair amount of time in British Columbia that seemed so much more wild to me and let me kind of like give you context of why that is.

Okay, so like if you look at the dynamic of that area, there's a huge highway that goes from Highway 70 that goes from Denver on the Front Range up, you know, past all the ski resorts, into Vail, into Eagle.

And then it kind of goes down through a big the Canyon Glenwood Canyon and kicks back into to Aspen The all the winter range there is split by this massive highway And then that highway has a An eight-foot game fence along the whole whole thing and then you know along that Vail Valley where they're wanting to put Put these or where they are gonna put these wolves.

You know, there's you know 50,000 full-time residents and you know, there's bright Double that in the high season ski season stuff unless you got these huge ski resorts I guess what I'm getting at is when somebody tells me that the low hanging fruit to kind of rewild that area is wolves, it's just bullshit.

Well, it got passed by a ballot initiative, you know that the ballot initiative is How wolves got you know got to the situation?

They are now and basically what the ballot initiative did is it forced the CPW to take on this goal of transplanting the the wolves.

So it wasn't the CPW's choice and they and they you know there's a I don't know the exact laws Joe but this the CPW and that's the Colorado Park the Colorado Parks and Wildlife They're in charge of managing the wildlife in Colorado.

The transplanting of wolves a very complex Biological problem, I mean it's you're dealing with biology and wildlife How can they put that as a ballot initiative?

Like, how can they put that in the hands of people other than wildlife conservation experts, wildlife biologists?

Well, I mean, the reality is our laws allow that.

But it's a decision that for people that are just like, yeah, that'd be amazing, Let's put the wolves out there.

It's going to affect anyone who has livestock.

You're going to have a problem, whether that problem's in 3 years or in 5 years.

have a cute golden retriever like mine, you leave him outside, guess what, that dog's dead.

They're gonna team up on that dog and tear it apart.

And if you're cool with going outside and seeing wolves eat your dog, well then you've made the right choice.

But if you're not, if you don't think they're gonna go after low-hanging fruit, if you don't think they're gonna go after low-hanging fruit If you don't you don't think they're gonna go after easy prey

you don't understand wolves talk to people that live in Alaska

yeah, you know anybody who lives in like British Columbia like they have real fucking wolf problems up there right and these are wolf problems that we used to have in the West But they eradicated them right I mean, I don't think it's good to eradicate I'm not saying that what they do is right when they poisoned horses and left at horses filled with strychnine and you know and the wolves all died off, but They did it for a fucking reason.

Well, it has to thing That's that's so crazy about you know back to the the process of how it happened Everybody who who wants wolves in?

Colorado and we can get into you know, the depth they want them, because that's not really clear, you know, they just went through this whole, you know, setting up the plan for the CPW, and it became very clear in my mind watching that process that they don't really want there to be any you know management of wolves in Colorado either.

Yeah and so that I think you know anybody rational is gonna be like look like we got to have like a top to the population.

Well, so here's the deal is they're not, they have a draft plan, you know, for, to manage the wolves.

What happened is when the CPW did that draft plan, it included some discussion of wolves being lethally managed at all different stages.

Like even now, if they you know a real problem with livestock, you know, could they be lethally managed?

But down the road, once they had hit certain population objectives, could they be hunted, right?

Well, it turns out the ballot initiative basically says that wolves are a non-game species and that was in the language of the ballot initiative.

So they can't really, they can't really now say, the CPW can't really say that they're gonna someday be a hundred, a hunted species in Colorado.

I personally think, and I, you know, not everything's like 20-20 hindsight, but even when the ballot initiative originally, you know, was out there and I always thought it was going to pass by a landslide.

That's what's so crazy because it just barely passed.

But I always thought like the problem with Colorado is it's different than these other Western states, you know, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, because they're going to keep the population in line through hunting or other methods.

But in Colorado, I don't think the politics are gonna allow that, man.

I think it's just gonna be like, who knows what the top is on, how many there is, how much they affect the ungulate population, who knows?

But what I was gonna say is what's crazy about this ballot initiative in the bummer part about it is everybody that's going to deal with the negative consequences.

There are people that voted no in, but They're in the areas where the wolves are going to be transplanted.

Everybody that voted for it, they don't have to deal with the downside.

But the problem is, is every person that I've interacted with in British Columbia, you know, or even in the Western states that have a fair amount of wolves, every person is just trying to make a living on the landscape.

You know, he's a guide, an outfitter, a logger, a cattle rancher, whatever, like he's out there living, he or she's out there living with them and dealing with them, they're all just like, when you ask about wolves, they're like, it's just like, you know what I mean?

Because they got to deal with the negative consequences all the time.

They're a totally different Kind of animal than any other animal because they act as a pack and right they have some sort of Intelligent communication

Yeah, they're cunning and crafty and they're efficient ruthless killers

and they also surplus kill, you know, they find them like I think was Wyoming recently But they found just like fucking giant pile of elk that they had trapped in high snow and just tore to pieces.

And I don't know the stats on how common it is, but you know other predators do that too.

difference between them is that they act as a group.

They're the only 1 of those predators that acts as a large group.

No and they in their their effect I mean they're they're effective I mean even when you talk to I know I know a guy in British Columbia that's, I mean, his whole world is focused on trapping them.

And I've sat and talked to him just about the details, you know, like boiling his snares, how he goes in and puts his snares in, you know How he goes in and checks them like all that boiling

Yeah Yeah, because they just pick up on that that stuff, you know, they're just so smart It's And they

Yeah, which you know, it's funny Cuz the first thing you said is there a dog and that I mean you you have dogs, you know How it is like they can't figure it out.

I mean, I talked to my dog like he understands certain things,

I'm like, come on, dude Let's go outside.

Yeah For sure I can say I don't have to say it like, wanna go outside?

I can just say, hey, come on man, let's go outside.

And He's like, oh yeah, let's go outside.

And what he is is a really tame, docile version of a wolf.

A wolf is like, have you ever been around a Belgian Malinois?

Those are the dogs that they use in war, and police dogs, and they are fucking scary little meat missiles.

they look at you like this Yeah, they're always thinking and you can't just keep 1 of those motherfuckers in your yard.

They're too smart They're working dogs first of all they climb fences Yeah, like a Chimpanzee when they just go right up the fence and over it I mean have you ever seen like videos of Belgian Malinois working?

I don't think I have Joe I'm trying to put it's wild

They can do shit where they leap through the air like you can't fucking Believe they really can jump that high

I'm talking like 12 feet in the air They run jump off a guy's back and then leap through the air like climb over Walls that are like 10 feet tall just by Running up the wall?

Look, he's running up a fucking tree to get to a mitt and then he's hanging on it.

Man, you know the diversity amongst dogs is wild.

But these dogs in particular are bred and look how smart they are look you can walk across a type rope Look at that And then saying I mean that's fucking insane dude.

They're so intelligent, but that's closer to a wolf

I mean they're basically an athlete wolf Yeah, you know

have you ever seen these these great Pyrenees dogs that they run with the sheep?

Yeah, well they're cool in a much different way.

It's so wild that they all came from wolves and that you have so many different styles of like the way they look.

Dude, these dogs, so there's big, big domestic sheep permits where I used to outfit.

So guys running, you know, big bands of sheep periodically in the wilderness areas and they keep these dogs with them.

And these dogs are something else to run into, you know, in the night up in the mountains or whatever in there they're just you know, they just protect those sheep just you know, he sees big bands of sheep like this and

Yeah, so So I've heard mixed things in this will be Interesting because right where they're gonna put some of these wolves in Colorado There's some pretty big domestic sheep guys that run these Pyrenees dogs.

and actually so So sheep in the wilderness are 1 of the few animals that are still guarded by humans You know, they usually have a herder with them.

Yeah, and they a lot of them are guys from nowadays It seems to be that most of them are from Peru I believe and I used to run into the guys because they've been out there living with these sheep man for like Weeks at a time So yeah, even though there's a language barrier Like when they see you up there like they wanna they want to hang out, you know, say hi or whatever

Yeah, they'll have like a double horse with them, you know, maybe I don't know Probably 5 600 sheep and they'll have a couple of those dogs Wow, you know, but back to your original question is I've heard mixed things about these dogs' ability to deal with wolves.

It has to do with the fact that there's a group of wolves.

If they can draw 1 of these dogs off, wolves can kill them.


Speaker 0: The Jerogan Experience.

Speaker 1: Wolves are dominant, intelligent, calculating predators. Yeah. That they eradicated from the West for a reason.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah, man. So, I think you hit on a bunch of things that would like bring me back to my opinion on it. And that's that a lot of this stuff when you wouldn't. So I know they've basically described 2 different areas in Colorado where they're going to put the 2 or the 2 first sets of transplants.

And 1 of them is like right in where, you're not, I mean, I rode that country with a horse like all over the place, in the circle of where they're gonna put those wolves is right there. So I know where they're gonna put those, you know, 1 of the spots. I know the spot intimately. I know the wildlife there intimately.

Speaker 1: How many wolves are they going to put in?

Speaker 0: So, my understanding is off the bat, the first year, and I believe their goal is by December of this year, it's going to be like between 15 and 30, I believe is the first bunch. And they're going to have them in 2 different spots. But in that, you know, in that Vale corridor, you know, up to the flat tops in there, you know, so they're probably gonna put 15 to 20 wolves in there. The thing that you hit on, Joe, that I think kind of forms my opinion is, I mean, these areas, when you go in them, man, they seem so wild, Right? Like, you know, I could, the flat tops, I could get on a horse and I could ride for 15, 15 hours and not see a road, you know, 10 hours and not see a road.

And they seem so wild, even to me being there. But I don't think that people realize how much, how much humans have already affected that landscape and how it doesn't matter like the this myth that putting wolves back in the land that landscape is going to turn it back to some ecosystem that was here, you know, 300 years ago, I think it's a figment of their imagination, man. And the reason I say that is because I've also spent a fair amount of time in British Columbia that seemed so much more wild to me and let me kind of like give you context of why that is. You know, have you ever been to Vail? Colorado?

No. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1: Oh I have but not outside.

Speaker 0: Okay, so like if you look at the dynamic of that area, there's a huge highway that goes from Highway 70 that goes from Denver on the Front Range up, you know, past all the ski resorts, into Vail, into Eagle. And then it kind of goes down through a big the Canyon Glenwood Canyon and kicks back into to Aspen The all the winter range there is split by this massive highway And then that highway has a An eight-foot game fence along the whole whole thing and then you know along that Vail Valley where they're wanting to put Put these or where they are gonna put these wolves. You know, there's you know 50,000 full-time residents and you know, there's bright Double that in the high season ski season stuff unless you got these huge ski resorts I guess what I'm getting at is when somebody tells me that the low hanging fruit to kind of rewild that area is wolves, it's just bullshit. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: How is it getting passed though?

Speaker 0: Well, it got passed by a ballot initiative, you know that the ballot initiative is How wolves got you know got to the situation? They are now and basically what the ballot initiative did is it forced the CPW to take on this goal of transplanting the the wolves. So it wasn't the CPW's choice and they and they you know there's a I don't know the exact laws Joe but this the CPW and that's the Colorado Park the Colorado Parks and Wildlife They're in charge of managing the wildlife in Colorado.

Speaker 1: How can they put something like? The transplanting of wolves a very complex Biological problem, I mean it's you're dealing with biology and wildlife How can they put that as a ballot initiative? Like, how can they put that in the hands of people other than wildlife conservation experts, wildlife biologists?

Speaker 0: Well, I mean, the reality is our laws allow that. You know what I mean? It doesn't make rational sense. No. You know?

Speaker 1: But it's a decision that for people that are just like, yeah, that'd be amazing, Let's put the wolves out there. People are going to lose their dogs. Your dogs are going to get eaten. It's going to affect anyone who has livestock. You're going to have a problem, whether that problem's in 3 years or in 5 years.

Those problems are coming. Dogs are 100% gonna get eaten.

Speaker 0: If you

Speaker 1: have a cute golden retriever like mine, you leave him outside, guess what, that dog's dead. They're gonna team up on that dog and tear it apart. And if you're cool with going outside and seeing wolves eat your dog, well then you've made the right choice. But if you're not, if you don't think they're gonna go after low-hanging fruit, if you don't think they're gonna go after low-hanging fruit If you don't you don't think they're gonna go after easy prey

Speaker 0: sure

Speaker 1: you don't understand wolves talk to people that live in Alaska

Speaker 0: Yeah,

Speaker 1: yeah, you know anybody who lives in like British Columbia like they have real fucking wolf problems up there right and these are wolf problems that we used to have in the West But they eradicated them right I mean, I don't think it's good to eradicate I'm not saying that what they do is right when they poisoned horses and left at horses filled with strychnine and you know and the wolves all died off, but They did it for a fucking reason.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it has to thing That's that's so crazy about you know back to the the process of how it happened Everybody who who wants wolves in? Colorado and we can get into you know, the depth they want them, because that's not really clear, you know, they just went through this whole, you know, setting up the plan for the CPW, and it became very clear in my mind watching that process that they don't really want there to be any you know management of wolves in Colorado either. Ever.

Yeah so basically... Well that's crazy. Yeah and so that I think you know anybody rational is gonna be like look like we got to have like a top to the population. You know?

Speaker 1: There's no management at all?

Speaker 0: Well, so here's the deal is they're not, they have a draft plan, you know, for, to manage the wolves. What happened is when the CPW did that draft plan, it included some discussion of wolves being lethally managed at all different stages. You know what I mean, Joe? Like even now, if they you know a real problem with livestock, you know, could they be lethally managed? But down the road, once they had hit certain population objectives, could they be hunted, right?

Like that was discussed. Well, it turns out the ballot initiative basically says that wolves are a non-game species and that was in the language of the ballot initiative. So they can't really, they can't really now say, the CPW can't really say that they're gonna someday be a hundred, a hunted species in Colorado. I personally think, and I, you know, not everything's like 20-20 hindsight, but even when the ballot initiative originally, you know, was out there and I always thought it was going to pass by a landslide. That's what's so crazy because it just barely passed.

But I always thought like the problem with Colorado is it's different than these other Western states, you know, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, because they're going to keep the population in line through hunting or other methods. But in Colorado, I don't think the politics are gonna allow that, man. I think it's just gonna be like, who knows what the top is on, how many there is, how much they affect the ungulate population, who knows? But what I was gonna say is what's crazy about this ballot initiative in the bummer part about it is everybody that's going to deal with the negative consequences. There are people that voted no in, but They're in the areas where the wolves are going to be transplanted.

Everybody that voted for it, they don't have to deal with the downside.

Speaker 1: They're living in Boulder.

Speaker 0: Yeah, dude, and I'm like you, man. They're cool. Like, I've been around them in Canada. They're way cool. But the problem is, is every person that I've interacted with in British Columbia, you know, or even in the Western states that have a fair amount of wolves, every person is just trying to make a living on the landscape.

You know, he's a guide, an outfitter, a logger, a cattle rancher, whatever, like he's out there living, he or she's out there living with them and dealing with them, they're all just like, when you ask about wolves, they're like, it's just like, you know what I mean? Because they got to deal with the negative consequences all the time.

Speaker 1: They're a totally different Kind of animal than any other animal because they act as a pack and right they have some sort of Intelligent communication

Speaker 0: there. They're badass.

Speaker 1: They're amazing. Yeah, they're cunning and crafty and they're efficient ruthless killers

Speaker 0: Yeah,

Speaker 1: and they also surplus kill, you know, they find them like I think was Wyoming recently But they found just like fucking giant pile of elk that they had trapped in high snow and just tore to pieces.

Speaker 0: Yeah, yeah. And I don't know the stats on how common it is, but you know other predators do that too.

Speaker 1: Yeah, cats do that.

Speaker 0: Yeah, yeah. But it's, The

Speaker 1: difference between them is that they act as a group.

Speaker 0: Yeah.

Speaker 1: They're the only 1 of those predators that acts as a large group.

Speaker 0: Yeah. No and they in their their effect I mean they're they're effective I mean even when you talk to I know I know a guy in British Columbia that's, I mean, his whole world is focused on trapping them. And I've sat and talked to him just about the details, you know, like boiling his snares, how he goes in and puts his snares in, you know How he goes in and checks them like all that boiling

Speaker 1: the snares to leave no scent.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, because they just pick up on that that stuff, you know, they're just so smart It's And they

Speaker 1: know that they're being fucked with too.

Speaker 0: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which you know, it's funny Cuz the first thing you said is there a dog and that I mean you you have dogs, you know How it is like they can't figure it out.

Speaker 1: Yeah, they know things.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Yeah for sure

Speaker 1: I mean, I talked to my dog like he understands certain things,

Speaker 0: right?

Speaker 1: I'm like, come on, dude Let's go outside. Yeah starts going towards the door. Yeah For sure I can say I don't have to say it like, wanna go outside?

Speaker 0: Do you

Speaker 1: wanna go outside? I can just say, hey, come on man, let's go outside. Yeah. And He's like, oh yeah, let's go outside. Are you hungry?

And he's like, fuck yeah, I'm hungry. I'm like, OK, let's eat. He knows what that means. He knows some aspects of language. And what he is is a really tame, docile version of a wolf.

A wolf is like, have you ever been around a Belgian Malinois?

Speaker 0: Yeah, I don't think I'm familiar.

Speaker 1: Those are the dogs that they use in war, and police dogs, and they are fucking scary little meat missiles.

Speaker 0: I got you and

Speaker 1: they look at you like this Yeah, they're always thinking and you can't just keep 1 of those motherfuckers in your yard. They're too smart They're working dogs first of all they climb fences Yeah, like a Chimpanzee when they just go right up the fence and over it I mean have you ever seen like videos of Belgian Malinois working?

Speaker 0: I don't think I have Joe I'm trying to put it's wild

Speaker 1: They can do shit where they leap through the air like you can't fucking Believe they really can jump that high

Speaker 0: right

Speaker 1: like soaring through the air. I'm talking like 12 feet in the air They run jump off a guy's back and then leap through the air like climb over Walls that are like 10 feet tall just by Running up the wall? Yeah. It's insane.

Speaker 0: Pretty wild.

Speaker 1: That's a wolf. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 0: This is

Speaker 1: a Belgian wolf.

Speaker 0: Oh yeah, yeah. I've seen it, man.

Speaker 1: Look at this. I mean, that's insane.

Speaker 0: It is nuts.

Speaker 1: How's that dog doing that? Look at him running up the fucking wall. He's basically a monkey. Got it figured out. Look, he's running up a fucking tree to get to a mitt and then he's hanging on it.

It's crazy.

Speaker 0: Man, you know the diversity amongst dogs is wild.

Speaker 1: It is wild. But these dogs in particular are bred and look how smart they are look you can walk across a type rope Look at that And then saying I mean that's fucking insane dude. They're so intelligent, but that's closer to a wolf

Speaker 0: Yeah,

Speaker 1: way closer to look at his ears. I mean they're basically an athlete wolf Yeah, you know

Speaker 0: have you ever seen these these great Pyrenees dogs that they run with the sheep? Yes. Yeah, well they're cool in a much different way.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 0: But they basically think they're sheep. Yeah. You know?

Speaker 1: Pull up Great Pyrenees dogs. Yeah, they're interesting. It's so wild that they all came from wolves and that you have so many different styles of like the way they look.

Speaker 0: Dude, these dogs, so there's big, big domestic sheep permits where I used to outfit. So guys running, you know, big bands of sheep periodically in the wilderness areas and they keep these dogs with them. And these dogs are something else to run into, you know, in the night up in the mountains or whatever in there they're just you know, they just protect those sheep just you know, he sees big bands of sheep like this and

Speaker 1: See they keep wolves off

Speaker 0: of them. Yeah, so So I've heard mixed things in this will be Interesting because right where they're gonna put some of these wolves in Colorado There's some pretty big domestic sheep guys that run these Pyrenees dogs.

Speaker 1: Oh Jesus

Speaker 0: and actually so So sheep in the wilderness are 1 of the few animals that are still guarded by humans You know, they usually have a herder with them. Yeah, and they a lot of them are guys from nowadays It seems to be that most of them are from Peru I believe and I used to run into the guys because they've been out there living with these sheep man for like Weeks at a time So yeah, even though there's a language barrier Like when they see you up there like they wanna they want to hang out, you know, say hi or whatever

Speaker 1: Just happy to see people.

Speaker 0: Yeah, they'll have like a double horse with them, you know, maybe I don't know Probably 5 600 sheep and they'll have a couple of those dogs Wow, you know, but back to your original question is I've heard mixed things about these dogs' ability to deal with wolves. It has to do with the fact that there's a group of wolves. If they can draw 1 of these dogs off, wolves can kill them.

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The Dangers of Reintroducing Wolves to Colorado